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View Full Version : Hullo! Looking into purchasing a Catleap. Maybe Multi version..input lag concerns.



Mkilbride
07-19-2012, 03:17 AM
Eh, my old 24'' 16:10 has never been that wonderful...and so many things don't support 16:10 natively any mroe and you have to do hacks and it never looks right...and it can just be a pain.

These monitors are nice, cheap, higher resolution, IPS, all that, you guys know the drill.

Thing is, I use a A/V Receiver. At current I use a HDMI to DVI connector to allow for OSD and video output.

But I also want to be able to play my PS3 on my new monitor...so I hook my PS3 up to the A/V Receiver...and...well, sadly, there is no Dual Link DVI to HDMI connector or cable that will allow 2560 x 1440p.

So I'd be limiting myself to 1080p. Of course I can connect directly to the graphics card using the Dual Link DVI and forgo the OSD and video output of my A/V Receiver and still get sound, just no OSD or video output...meaning no PS3.

Now I can see that if I get a multi version(150$ more! Freaking an insane price increase for just ONE HDMI port!) I could hook my A/V Receiver output to the HMDI version and say, switch over to it when I want to play my PS3. Without having to unhook from my PC.

I know these Catleaps or so don't have OSD, but they must have some way of selecting what input to use, right? I mean my monitor allows me to select, much like a TV, which input I use. DSUB or DVI. But that's on the OSD.

It's frustrating; because these monitors are HDMI 1.4a, my A/V Receiver is 1.4a, and even HDMI 1.3 supports 2560 x 1440 according to technical specifications, so it's an internal limit on the monitor itself...

I was thinking of getting this one, thoughts?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008KWJHV8/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=

Just still such a high freaking increase in price. Half the price of another!

Mandarin
07-19-2012, 01:01 PM
Hmmmm very interesting... q271?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

beefcakes
07-19-2012, 03:42 PM
Eh, my old 24'' 16:10 has never been that wonderful...and so many things don't support 16:10 natively any mroe and you have to do hacks and it never looks right...and it can just be a pain.

These monitors are nice, cheap, higher resolution, IPS, all that, you guys know the drill.

Thing is, I use a A/V Receiver. At current I use a HDMI to DVI connector to allow for OSD and video output.

But I also want to be able to play my PS3 on my new monitor...so I hook my PS3 up to the A/V Receiver...and...well, sadly, there is no Dual Link DVI to HDMI connector or cable that will allow 2560 x 1440p.

So I'd be limiting myself to 1080p. Of course I can connect directly to the graphics card using the Dual Link DVI and forgo the OSD and video output of my A/V Receiver and still get sound, just no OSD or video output...meaning no PS3.

Now I can see that if I get a multi version(150$ more! Freaking an insane price increase for just ONE HDMI port!) I could hook my A/V Receiver output to the HMDI version and say, switch over to it when I want to play my PS3. Without having to unhook from my PC.

I know these Catleaps or so don't have OSD, but they must have some way of selecting what input to use, right? I mean my monitor allows me to select, much like a TV, which input I use. DSUB or DVI. But that's on the OSD.

It's frustrating; because these monitors are HDMI 1.4a, my A/V Receiver is 1.4a, and even HDMI 1.3 supports 2560 x 1440 according to technical specifications, so it's an internal limit on the monitor itself...

I was thinking of getting this one, thoughts?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008KWJHV8/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=

Just still such a high freaking increase in price. Half the price of another!

Even if there was such a cable that transmitted 2560x1440/1600 rez through HDMI, the source has to be 2560x1440/1600. Last I checked PS3's are maxed to 1080p not because of HDMI, but because of the PS3.

The only benefit of using a smaller screen for your PS3 as opposed to a TV, is that pixel density is higher, allowing you to sit closer to the screen w/o sacrificing perceptive image quality while maintaining enough view where focusing the middle of the screen allows you to see all of it as opposed to having to pan your head around.

Mkilbride
07-20-2012, 02:14 AM
Even if there was such a cable that transmitted 2560x1440/1600 rez through HDMI, the source has to be 2560x1440/1600. Last I checked PS3's are maxed to 1080p not because of HDMI, but because of the PS3.

The only benefit of using a smaller screen for your PS3 as opposed to a TV, is that pixel density is higher, allowing you to sit closer to the screen w/o sacrificing perceptive image quality while maintaining enough view where focusing the middle of the screen allows you to see all of it as opposed to having to pan your head around.

Huh?

Where did I say this was PS3 only? I plan to use this as a PC monitor...with the added ability of using my PS3 on it. Since I work the night shift and can't use the TV downstairs during the night.

Now can anyone please talk to me of input lag?

And honestly, now that I look at it, if I'm going to pay 460$ for these, I might as well shell out another 60$ and get the 120hz version on Ebay. Scratch that. They now go for 900$.

Fuck, I should have jumped the gun when they were 519$.

Sneaky
07-20-2012, 02:52 AM
If you want to use a PS3 with it then you have to get a Multi that has an HDMI input.
The 120Hz versions of the Multi's skip frames so they are NOT TRUELY 120Hz capable, really only 60Hz.
I personally think ta_planet is ripping people off as he has signed up on this forum so I am sure he has seen the
thread where it is shown the multi's skip frames.
I'd be pretty pissed off if I bought one of those multi's for $1000 to find it is really only 60Hz.
Don't waste your money .. if you need a Q270 Multi, just get a standard one.

HyperMatrix
07-20-2012, 02:57 AM
If you want to use a PS3 with it then you have to get a Multi that has an HDMI input.
The 120Hz versions of the Multi's skip frames so they are NOT TRUELY 120Hz capable, really only 60Hz.
I personally think ta_planet is ripping people off as he has signed up on this forum so I am sure he has seen the
thread where it is shown the multi's skip frames.
I'd be pretty pissed off if I bought one of those multi's for $1000 to find it is really only 60Hz.
Don't waste your money .. if you need a Q270 Multi, just get a standard one.

To be fair in this regard, he is only advertising what the manufacturer is claiming the product can do. So I'd blame Witech for lack of research before releasing that monitor. We have already communicated this to Witech and they are looking into it as well. But yes so far there has been no other monitor capable of 1440p at 120hz.

Sneaky
07-20-2012, 03:13 AM
Yeah .. I know that but still if I was 'mass' selling an item I'd want to be pretty sure of it's capabilities (especially an item at $1000).
Especially if it could come back and bite me on the ass lol

HyperMatrix
07-20-2012, 03:22 AM
Yeah .. I know that but still if I was 'mass' selling an item I'd want to be pretty sure of it's capabilities (especially an item at $1000).
Especially if it could come back and bite me on the ass lol

With the number of stuff they carry it gets hard. If a manufacturer says "hey, I have a 120hz monitor. i'll label it as 120hz. and I'll guarantee that it's 120hz as part of the warranty coverage," you really don't second guess it. So he and bigclothcraft are both in an awkward boat. I place the blame on Witech, personally. They even tried to get us to sell the "120hz" multi's on here. Difference is, we were lucky enough to have members that tested the monitors and shared their results with all of us.

Sneaky
07-20-2012, 04:41 AM
Lucky indeed ;)

TheZone
07-20-2012, 03:49 PM
I was unlucky and got one from BCC but it does look great and works great too.

Mkilbride
07-20-2012, 09:32 PM
Alright, but can anyone please tell me about the input lag.

How much of an increase are we talking about here? I have perceptive eyes, more so than most people, I'm not bragging or anything, but I am anal about the smallest things, cosmetically, picture wise and all that. Stuff my friends never see or even can tell, I complain about.

So I'm wondering if the extra HDMI input really increases input lag all that much?

HyperMatrix
07-20-2012, 09:45 PM
Alright, but can anyone please tell me about the input lag.

How much of an increase are we talking about here? I have perceptive eyes, more so than most people, I'm not bragging or anything, but I am anal about the smallest things, cosmetically, picture wise and all that. Stuff my friends never see or even can tell, I complain about.

So I'm wondering if the extra HDMI input really increases input lag all that much?

If you're ok with using a 60hz monitor, an extra 8ms of input lag won't bother you.

Mkilbride
07-20-2012, 11:16 PM
Hmm.

8ms input lag. On top of what?

The 6ms is response time, which is different from input lag.

Sneaky
07-20-2012, 11:55 PM
This is the thread which will tell you all you need to know about the input lag on the Multi versions, I suggest you read through it ;)
http://120hz.net/showthread.php?303-Overclockable-Multi-Just-arrived-No-discernable-input-lag-vs-2C

HyperMatrix, probably not a bad idea to sticky that thread and maybe change it's name so it is easy for
anyone with questions on the Multi's input lag to find ;)

Mkilbride
07-21-2012, 12:03 AM
I already read that thread.

Here is what I took away from it:

50% say it is incredibly noticable by anyone who has ever played a FPS.

50% says you would never notice it even if you only played FPS's 24/7.

So...

No real answer there. Of course, it's subjective to a degree.

I'm starting to think...about getting the DVI-D version and just using a HDMI to DVI-D cable and unhook my PC when I want to play my PS3...on HDMI it only supports 1080p, but so what? That's the max of the PS3 as well. Sure it'd be annoying to have to disconnect and reconnect each time, but meh...160$ price premium for something that takes 10 seconds each time, and more input lag?

I'm still very much interested in 120HZ versions, but they are rare, this site just got 100 and they were all pre-ordered within minutes of the news post.

Sneaky
07-21-2012, 12:32 AM
You can get the Standard Catleap Multi for $399.90 on ebay (which is what you should get if you want a Multi, no point getting the OC 120hz Multi).
You said in your above post you see more than the average person so I am guessing you would notice the input lag.
I have been starting to notice the extra lag going from my ASUS 2ms monitor to my 2C Catleaps 6ms, it is notice able in FPS (but FPS is all I play).
In BF3 I'm finding even when I have the jump on an opponent a lot of the time it is me dead when it should be the other way around,
never used to happen as often on my ASUS. Resulting in me saying "WTF" a lot of the time lol.
Keep in mind my Monitor isn't a Multi version, just a vanilla Catleap at 60Hz so with a Multi the input lag is compounded, 6ms response + 8ms+ Input lag + Network Lag.
It adds up and I am guessing someone like yourself 'would' notice it, heck I noticed it with my no 'OSD' Catleap.

You need to think about what is most important to you, you can get used to lag, back in the day I used to only play Halo on US servers with a 230+ ping,
I learned over time to 'lead' my shots, shooting about 3 players width in front of my target, I did so well I was one of the top Halo players at the time.
Is reconnecting all the time going to piss you off? I know it would for me.

Mkilbride
07-21-2012, 12:50 AM
Well fine then, I'll get the normal, no 120HZ version, easier on my wallet and I can have it here sooner.

But I've heard the base is absolutely shite, and some people have gotten replacements for it...do you have any idea what those are?

Also, I just ordered myself a Dual Link DVI Cable from Monoprice - I heard the one that comes with these can be very iffy. What about the power adapter and all that?

I know this is about Catleap, but the Crossover seems to have a better stand and just overall presentation.

They are the same thing though, right?

Thanks.

http://www.amazon.com/CROSSOVER-27Q-LED-High-Resolutio-2560x1440/dp/B008B69CPY/ref=sr_1_2?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1342853637&sr=1-2&keywords=Crossover

Sneaky
07-21-2012, 01:16 AM
Yes the Crossover Multi is pretty much the same with maybe a better stand ... probably IDK.
I find the Catleap stand to be fine but my desk is pretty sturdy, if your desk wobbles yes it is shite.
I think the Dual Link DVI cable that comes with it is usually fine, mine is, it is when you want to OC that you may need a better cable,
but some have reported their cable that came with the monitor to be faulty, doesn't hurt to buy a better one.
All you will need as far as the power adapter is concerned is a cable that will fit into your wall socket, the other end of the cable,
that goes into the power brick is a generic plug fitting, same as you would find on your PC power supply.
You could use the one from your existing monitor. ;)

Just a note* If you buy from a seller on Amazon, if you have any issues, you would need to send the monitor back to them,
they would then send it back to Korea, could be a PITA. *Also that sellers feedback is only 80%, not a good sign
Probably better to buy direct from one of the Korean eBay sellers, BCC, redcap or green-sum ;)

This is the cheapest one I could find on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/New-YAMAKASI-CATLEAP-Q270-MULTI-27-LED-2560X1440-S-IPS-Stereo-Gaming-Monitor-/140717987281?pt=Computer_Monitors&hash=item20c37215d1

Crossover Multi (has Matte anti-glare film):
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MATTE-non-glare-PERFECT-PIXELS-CROSSOVER-27-27HLED-1920x1080-LED-HDMI-Monitor-/221010969543?pt=Computer_Monitors&hash=item337547c3c7

Mkilbride
07-21-2012, 01:59 AM
Yes, but there is a few reasons I want Amazon.

1. Paypal has locked me out for no reason I can understand, they want a copy of a Passport...that I don't have. U.S Resident, never left the country...I gave them my photo ID, they confirmed by mail, confirmed by phone,

But I'm still locked out.

Been dealing with their email service for awhile and no go. Can't even remove my CC to add to another Paypal.

Also, I have 115$ in Amazon payements I got for selling an old GPU. Would like to use that towards this. Granted I could just transfer it to the card, I guess...

That 115$ to me is -found- money, in a sense, you know? I mean selling a old GPU is hard to do in any market.

But yeah, same monitor, better stand. It costs more, but most people are showing me 30$ stands from Monoprice for the monitor...bringing it quickly close the same price and the monoprice stands seem kinda ugly. Not functional, most can't tilt or swivel.

****************************

This right here is the final question to decide if I go Crossover, or Catleap.

Can the current Catleaps, be OC'ed, at all? I don't mean 120hz, I know that is gone forever most likely.

But say, 75hz on one of the newer ones, possible? Maybe 85hz? I know each one is different, but if I can OC to even say, 70hz, I'd get Catleap for sure.

I know it won't be like a CRT. But I have an old CRT monitor, 17''. I used to play @ 1600 x 1200 @ 65hz sometimes, but usually I would default back to 1024 x 768, all those magical years ago, and my old monitor allowed 85hz @ 1024 x 768.

I remember, playing Guild Wars 1, and a feeling of something awesome washed over me as I watched butterysmoothness.

Of course, most of that is due to CRT's no input lag and zero response time. But still! I'd love to see 2560 x 1440 @ 85hz @ 27''. Bring a tear to my eye.

Sneaky
07-21-2012, 04:17 AM
The non-overclockable Catleaps can only go up to 65-68hz ;)

Mkilbride
07-21-2012, 04:41 AM
Fuck.

I would have definitely gone Catleap + Stand for 70hz. Hmm..

65hz though. Due to input lag and all that frame updating nonsense, it'd still be quite nice, eh? So tempting.

But it actually turns out the Catleap is more expensive...once you factor in the new stand that is. So it's frustrating. Crossover may be able to OC to 65hz, maybe? I like the Crossover's bezel, it's thin, and build quality looks nice...on top of the good mount.

Sigh

That PCB board that hasn't been sourced yet...I wonder about the 2B PCB's, if they will ever come in...

Question on the PCB though, how hard would it be to install, chances of permanent damage, how high, and would these PCB's work in say the Crossover, being that these are basically the same make?

If the PCB's conme next year, then I could just install it like an upgrade kit, but the most delicate procedure I've done is putting a custom cooler on a GPU, I imagine this might require soldering.

Sneaky
07-21-2012, 05:34 AM
Scribby mentioned the PCB's would not be made this side of Christmas, there are guides on here how to open up your Monitor and I am sure there
will be proper instructions on how to replace the PCB's when/if they ever become available.

Mkilbride
07-21-2012, 06:21 AM
Man, I've ordered the adapter, cable, just not the monitor. Something keeps stopping me.

I have this monitor; I got it in 2008:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824112011

I've never been particularly fond of it. It was huge, a big upgrade from my 17'' and wowed me to the point I didn't care that in dark scenes there was a white film over the screen and I couldn't see.

I didn't care that there was a slight blur. IT claims 2ms? But I dunno..!

This monitor also flickers from time to time and it has streaks coming down it you see in dark scenes now...

Would this be a worthy upgrade...hmm. Also, I may be measuring my monitor wrong.

But...using the tape measurer, the screen itself measures 21-22 inches, while the entire thing is about 23'', is that normal? I've had it so many years, but now it seems I've been missing a few inches...is it the same with the 27''?

Do I get 27'''s of screen, not including the bezel? It seems my 24'' is 24'' including the bezel...

HyperMatrix
07-21-2012, 09:06 AM
Hmm.

8ms input lag. On top of what?

The 6ms is response time, which is different from input lag.

Something like 8-16ms more input lag compared to the dvi-only scaler-less model, depending on which source you believe.

Mad-Duke
07-21-2012, 11:21 AM
Man, I've ordered the adapter, cable, just not the monitor. Something keeps stopping me.

I have this monitor; I got it in 2008:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824112011

I've never been particularly fond of it. It was huge, a big upgrade from my 17'' and wowed me to the point I didn't care that in dark scenes there was a white film over the screen and I couldn't see.

I didn't care that there was a slight blur. IT claims 2ms? But I dunno..!

This monitor also flickers from time to time and it has streaks coming down it you see in dark scenes now...

Would this be a worthy upgrade...hmm. Also, I may be measuring my monitor wrong.

But...using the tape measurer, the screen itself measures 21-22 inches, while the entire thing is about 23'', is that normal? I've had it so many years, but now it seems I've been missing a few inches...is it the same with the 27''?

Do I get 27'''s of screen, not including the bezel? It seems my 24'' is 24'' including the bezel...
Monitors/TV's are measured by their diagonal distance not by their height or width.

Mattsplat
07-21-2012, 02:33 PM
Something like 8-16ms more input lag compared to the dvi-only scaler-less model, depending on which source you believe.
So, a frame or less at 60Hz ... this is really not very much. Curious as to what monitor you have now - most 16:10 models aren't made with gaming in mind, odds are high you're experiencing at least that much input lag (or more) right now. Generally if it has more inputs than DVI, you're gonna get some input lag. Plus if it's going through a receiver, some frame delay can be added there as well.

Not to mention the average human reaction time is about 10x that: http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php

Given your current setup, a 60Hz multi Catleap sounds like the best choice. I very highly doubt that little bit of input lag is going to affect your gaming significantly. Heck, most of the folks you'd be playing against are probably getting at least that much input lag ;)

nexere
07-21-2012, 03:43 PM
So, a frame or less at 60Hz ... this is really not very much. Curious as to what monitor you have now - most 16:10 models aren't made with gaming in mind, odds are high you're experiencing at least that much input lag (or more) right now. Generally if it has more inputs than DVI, you're gonna get some input lag. Plus if it's going through a receiver, some frame delay can be added there as well.

Not to mention the average human reaction time is about 10x that: http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/stats.php

Given your current setup, a 60Hz multi Catleap sounds like the best choice. I very highly doubt that little bit of input lag is going to affect your gaming significantly. Heck, most of the folks you'd be playing against are probably getting at least that much input lag ;)


a frame of lag is a fair bit,my math may be wrong but even at 60fps each frame would last 16.66ms before being updated 1000 (ms) / 60fps

so 33 ms latency if your a frame behind, and then the 6 ms response time of the monitor that makes 41ms and thats just how long the monitor takes to update what its showing add on whatever delay the acturaly pc/graphics card has (no idea how much it is tbh)

so atleast 41 ms lag, that makes some ppls internet connections ms sound realy fast.....

Eron
07-21-2012, 04:06 PM
Am I missing something... The multi catleaps are now $1000?!?!?!?!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/120Hz-Overclock-Yamakasi-Catleap-Q270-Multi-2560x1440-WQHD-S-IPS-Monitor-/320944170501?pt=Computer_Monitors&hash=item4ab9c36605

120HzNET
07-21-2012, 05:03 PM
That guy is a MORON - ta-planet - no eron!

HyperMatrix
07-21-2012, 06:12 PM
I think he is doing what Greensum did before to prevent sales. Put a ridiculous price up. It's cheaper/faster than cancelling the auction and can be changed back when all is good again.

Mattsplat
07-21-2012, 07:27 PM
a frame of lag is a fair bit,my math may be wrong but even at 60fps each frame would last 16.66ms before being updated 1000 (ms) / 60fps
Hence 8-16ms being "a frame or less". This is inline with many other monitors - an example: http://www.anandtech.com/show/5752/nec-pa271w-when-accuracy-and-consistancy-matter/6


so 33 ms latency if your a frame behind
In theory, at the moment before a frame update and with an additional frame of lag that would be 33ms total ... but nobody calculates it this way, so 33ms is very misleading. Only relevant number is the lag vs a monitor with no scaler hardware.


and then the 6 ms response time of the monitor that makes 41ms
Nonono, you can't add these this way ... apples and oranges. 6ms is the pixel response time, what we're talking about is "input lag" (the additional lag introduced by the image processing that multi-input monitors have). Slow pixel response can lead to smearing/ghosting but not to a delay in updating the frame (unless we're hitting worse-case transition time on a large number of pixels ... OK now I've gone way too academic). See further:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_lag
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_time_%28technology%29#Display_technologie s