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HyperMatrix
08-21-2012, 03:39 PM
Hi guys,

If you plan on purchasing a 1440p monitor and want it to operate at higher than 82hz, please DO NOT buy an Nvidia video card. Nvidia started off as the best card for overclocking and many of us (including myself) purchased the Kepler series of cards. The Kepler (GTX 6xx) series were the first cards capable of pixel clock operating beyond 400mhz, which would get you up to 135hz refresh rate on a 1440p monitor. The previous Nvidia cards would work up until 400mhz, or around a 102mhz refresh rate on a 1440p monitor. This is all while using an SLI setup was limited to 400mhz as well, whether you're using Kepler or not. So...let's just point form what I said:

Kepler Series Cards (Single Card): 120hz+ (537mhz+ pixel clock limit)
Kepler Series Cards (SLI): 102hz (400mhz pixel clock limit)
Older Nvidia Cards (Single or SLI): 102hz (400mhz pixel clock limit)

As of 2 months ago, we noticed Nvidia beta drivers were acting oddly, and restricting the pixel clock to 330mhz. Any attempt to set a custom resolution through the Nvidia Control Panel would just give an error saying it's not supported by your device. It wouldn't attempt to do it and fail. It just popped up with an error. And previously added custom resolutions that were visible, would not load. We created a thread on their forums, and brought attention to it. We received no responses, and subsequently their forums were hacked and have been offline for 2 months now. One of the responses we had received through one of Nvidia's channels was that the limitation was due to a security feature built into their beta drivers, and that it is not indicative of what will be going into the live drivers.

I wish that had been true. During that time we tried out 2 consumer beta, and 1 developer beta driver. All had the same limitation. And what finally sealed it...with the launch of the GTX 660ti card, the latest non-beta WHQL certified driver for the card, has a strict across the board limit of 330mhz pixel clock. If you remember from the launch of the GTX 690 and GTX 670, the drivers available at launch for those cards were released as the standard drivers for the entire Kepler range of cards within 1-2 weeks. So all Kepler cards will soon be hit with this 330mhz pixel clock limit. What does this mean for us now? Well...let's recap as I did earlier:

Kepler Series Cards (Single Card): 82-84hz (330mhz pixel clock limit)
Kepler Series Cards (SLI): 82-84hz (330mhz pixel clock limit)
Older Nvidia Cards (Single or SLI): 82-84hz (330mhz pixel clock limit)

What does this mean for you? Well, currently the best option is to purchase AMD video cards. There is a driver mod for AMD video cards that allows an unlocked pixel clock for both Single Card and Crossfire setups (though some have reported certain limitations with Crossfire still). You can follow ToastyX's thread by clicking here. (http://120hz.net/showthread.php?270-Modified-AMD-ATI-driver-to-allow-higher-refresh-rates)

To make it more clear, this is where Nvidia and AMD stand at the moment (or rather, will in a few weeks):
Nvidia Cards: 82-84hz (330mhz pixel clock limit)
AMD Video Cards: 120hz (theoretically 600mhz+ pixel clock limit)

We are certainly upset that instead of moving forward, Nvidia has decided to remove functionality that was the main reason many of our current and future members purchased their cards. Stealing functionality, while legal from their end, is a terrible idea from a consumer standpoint and we strongly disagree with it. But all we can do is advise you of these changes and continue our attempts to contact Nvidia to see if they'd be willing to reverse this decision.

120HzNET
08-21-2012, 04:43 PM
This is shitty news all the way around. Get on them Hyper! We need those official signed drivers. I agree it is a short-sided approach as 1440 at 120hz IS THE FUTURE! And the future is now.

Mad-Duke
08-21-2012, 05:33 PM
What happened to that guy that purchased one of the OC versions of the Monitor here? Did he ever get his monitor? That guy sounded like a solid connection to a Nvidia Dev team as anyone could get...

On a side note... I am happy I went with Crossfire... Thanks TOASTY !!

necriss
08-21-2012, 06:36 PM
I'm sure this can be rectified with a few emails to their driver dev team and/or posts on nvidia forums whenever they're back up.

HyperMatrix
08-21-2012, 06:46 PM
Possibly. We're working on it and will try to do whatever we can. But for now, if you're deciding on a card to buy, don't buy Nvidia unless you're prepared to be stuck with an 82hz refresh rate. Or alternatively you could just run on the old drivers.

speedyeggtart
08-21-2012, 11:38 PM
Correct me if I am wrong... but from what I read in a forum regarding 305.68 WHQL drivers is ONLY FOR the GTX 660Ti and is not intended for the GTX 670 or higher cards... I am still waiting for WQHL drivers for my GTX 670...

EDIT: it may also be taken out of beta drivers because there are reports of overclock kepler cards degrading the card...

HyperMatrix
08-21-2012, 11:43 PM
Correct me if I am wrong... but from what I read in a forum regarding 305.68 WHQL drivers is ONLY FOR the GTX 660Ti and is not intended for the GTX 670 or higher cards... I am still waiting for WQHL drivers for my GTX 670...

As with the whql drivers for the gtx 670 and 690 before it, they first release it for the new card, then it's released for all the others with no real changes. That's why I said this will happen in a week or two.

speedyeggtart
08-22-2012, 12:51 AM
As with the whql drivers for the gtx 670 and 690 before it, they first release it for the new card, then it's released for all the others with no real changes. That's why I said this will happen in a week or two.

For the sake of all Kepler owners - I'm hoping that is not true and they go with different drivers for the higher end Keplers... Because I'm not going to get an AMD card anytime soon...

spam303
08-22-2012, 01:48 AM
Greetings,

I am a bit confused: What about all the Gamers who bought a casual 120hz TN-Panel?
Are they forced to 82hz, too? I wouldn't wonder, if a global player like Nvidia doesn't care about ~0.0001% customers who are willing to OC their monitors. But the casual 120hz TN-Panels are kinda hype on the market.... :confused:

Kotoko
08-22-2012, 01:59 AM
I believe this is related to 1440p only, not 1080p

spam303
08-22-2012, 02:09 AM
I believe this is related to 1440p only, not 1080p
Ok, I understand. But dislike, of'course.

Mattsplat
08-22-2012, 06:56 AM
I believe this is related to 1440p only, not 1080p
Right, it's a pixel clock limitation, not a framerate one. You can do 1080p @ 120Hz within the 330MHz pixel clock limitation, but you can't do 1440p @ 120Hz.

Any guesses as to why nV would implement this? Is there really potential to damage the cards with pixel clocks over 330? I know they're quite anal these days about software voltage control etc. but this seems like an unnecessary we're-in-control dick move.

BlackOctagon
08-22-2012, 08:01 AM
I suppose 670/680/690 owners could just continue to use the older drivers...

unt1tled
08-22-2012, 09:33 AM
I asked Jacob from EVA for his input. His reply:


@unt1tled Yes I know... still working on it but no promises at the moment... (http://twitter.com/EVGA_JacobF/statuses/238275706323357697)

Zios
08-22-2012, 11:44 AM
Haven't touched a ATI card in over 10 years... After reading through a 7 page thread on people still complaining of the current/past drivers, I remember why....No idea what to do atm..

Sn0_Man
08-22-2012, 11:50 AM
Haven't touched a ATI card in over 10 years... After reading through a 7 page thread on people still complaining of the current/past drivers, I remember why....No idea what to do atm..

Because those threads don't exist for nVidia amirite?

Oh yeah, their forums are down... lol.

I can honestly say my 670 has had more driver trouble than my 7950, FWIW. Not that it has been a real problem on either card. If you go crossfire and eyefinity together... then you are in trouble, I'll give you that.

NateZ28
08-22-2012, 01:40 PM
I suppose 670/680/690 owners could just continue to use the older drivers...
That'll work for a little while. But if you want to play the latest games with good performance and without glitches you are eventually going to need the latest drivers.

Sn0_Man
08-22-2012, 01:48 PM
That'll work for a little while. But if you want to play the latest games with good performance and without glitches you are eventually going to need the latest drivers.

Unfortunately, I think you are right.

I've been sitting on my launch drivers for my 670, and I've been happy with them, but GW2 is supposed to see a 15+% increase in performance when nVidia releases their newest drivers for the rest of the 600 series. Since my framerate goal is over 60 (okay, I'd like to hit 120 obviously)... the new drivers are hardly gonna be optional at this point. Which sucks. Maybe I should just put my 7950 back in? GW2 seems to be AMD favoured right now... ugh.

NateZ28
08-22-2012, 01:59 PM
Unfortunately, I think you are right.

I've been sitting on my launch drivers for my 670, and I've been happy with them, but GW2 is supposed to see a 15+% increase in performance when nVidia releases their newest drivers for the rest of the 600 series. Since my framerate goal is over 60 (okay, I'd like to hit 120 obviously)... the new drivers are hardly gonna be optional at this point. Which sucks. Maybe I should just put my 7950 back in? GW2 seems to be AMD favoured right now... ugh.
Have you tried the 301.42 drivers? Those worked really well for me when I had a 670. BF3 ran at 80-100 FPS with mostly Ultra settings.

Sn0_Man
08-22-2012, 02:07 PM
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/bill-freist-talks-optimization-and-performance/

Shows how "other driver versions" are much, much better for GW2 compared to 301.42. I don't even know what version I'm running, but I got the 670 launch week and haven't updated ever :p

I'll check when I get home I suppose.

Mkilbride
08-22-2012, 02:39 PM
Not an option. NVIDIA offers better cards for lower prices. I can't see myself going AMD. Got 2x 670's as well.

Sn0_Man
08-22-2012, 02:51 PM
NVIDIA offers better cards Debatable, but out of box in general yes
for lower prices Strictly false.

Got 2x 670's as well. Nice cards though! I'm hoping I don't need a second one myself...

HyperMatrix
08-22-2012, 02:52 PM
Hoping for either modded Nvidia drivers, or for the next generation AMD cards to step it up a notch, and also to have ToastyX's driver mods to still work. I prefer nvidia over AMD but more than that I prefer 120hz over 82hz. :P

NateZ28
08-22-2012, 03:15 PM
Hoping for either modded Nvidia drivers, or for the next generation AMD cards to step it up a notch, and also to have ToastyX's driver mods to still work. I prefer nvidia over AMD but more than that I prefer 120hz over 82hz. :P
AMD's new cards, code named Sea Islands, aren't due out till the end of this year or early 2013. So we're looking at a few months before see their newest flagship card.
My friend who owns an ATI card says that in general most games work better and have fewer problems with Nvidia. Mostly due to driver problems on the ATI side.

Someone feel free to correct me, but my understanding is that most games are better optimized for Nvidia hardware.

Mkilbride
08-22-2012, 03:25 PM
YEs.

Because NVIDIA supports developers. Crysis 2 ran better on NVIDIA and especially in DX11.

Why?

Because NVIDIA paid Crytek 2 Million dollars to add DX11 support, or else we never would have gotten it. NVIDIA also will offer full technical support with their software to developers.

AMD once paid Codemasters to optimize Dirt 2 for DX11, but they didn't offer technical support and out of the box it was terrible.

When you see The Way It Was Meant To Be Played logo's in-game, it is because NVIDIA offered them resources to make the game overall better.

AMD rarely does. This is the reason why, on the whole, most games run NVIDIA better, though there are exceptions both ways.

and yes, NVIDIA has better prices and a better product, UN-OC'ed and OC'ed this generation.

AMD's cards, and AMD's CPU's have sold poorly. They are on the verge of bankruptcy a recent news article showed, as they cancelled their next Piledriver CPU.

Their GPU division is doing well, but since NVIDIA releases the 6xx series...their sales dropped mightily. And NVIDIA has the 7xx, or "Big Kepler" due out by the end of the year / 2013, which claims to be 50-75% faster than the 6xx series, while AMD is claiming their 8xxx series is 20% faster than their 7xxx series, which the 6xx series, already beats by 10%.

cial01
08-22-2012, 07:23 PM
This is all the more interesting because of GW2's release. Basically the new nvidia beta drivers are almost required for best performance...but alas that means 82hz.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/bill-freist-talks-optimization-and-performance/

zoom99
08-22-2012, 10:34 PM
http://techreport.com/discussions.x/23447

New AMD price drops should help out! Really good price drops all around. On newegg many cards have already dropped down. 7850's for 209 is great and the 7870 is looking like the new champ for price performance over the 660.

BlackOctagon
08-23-2012, 01:13 AM
NVIDIA has the 7xx, or "Big Kepler" due out by the end of the year / 2013, which claims to be 50-75% faster than the 6xx series, while AMD is claiming their 8xxx series is 20% faster than their 7xxx series, which the 6xx series, already beats by 10%.

The last thing I want to do is to turn this thread into a pointless 'AMD vs. NVIDIA' argument, but do you have sources for these statistics? According to what I've read, 'Big Kepler' is a nickname invented by consumers/fans for NVIDIA's unreleased GK110 series. And according to everything I've been able to uncover about GK110, it looks like NVIDIA cards in that series are going to be SOLELY for compute (i.e., non-consumer gaming) applications...

We also had rumours that NVIDIA's 600 series ('normal' Kepler) was going to use GK110 and would be '45% faster' than the 7970. The 680 arrived, was no-where near this much faster, and didn't use GK110 after all. This led to a flurry of internet rumours that NVIDIA had decided they 'didn't even need' to bring out their big guns and released their 'mid-range' card in the 680 since it was enough to compete with AMD.

But as often as I read this kind of thing, it seems to come solely from end-consumers (usually NVIDIA owners) with absolutely ZERO evidence to back up these claims, statistics and so forth.

I am not trying to hijack this thread, nor even to 'disagree' with you. But please, just be honest: Can you share any hard evidence for what you've said or are you just repeating what you've heard? I'm asking solely in the interest of my own understanding of the market and won't hold it against you if you're just repeating what you've heard.

Cheers

HyperMatrix
08-23-2012, 03:39 AM
It's true that the gtx 680 was actually supposed to be the 670 or 660. It uses a much smaller die. But nvidia saw it had enough of a performance advantage over AMD to just classify it as their top line card, and profit for now. If they put out the Kepler line with a die size equal to the old gtx 580's then we are looking at a good 70-80% improvement over the gtx 680. But just as with the original 680...the idea is to put out a product that is better, but not "too much" better than your competition. That way you're still ahead, save money on cards, and have another a e up your sleeves. I'm guessing they will do another kepler card that still uses a smaller die size than the gtx 580, which gives a 25-33% performance boost over the existing gtx 680.

Nvidia has the technology this round to just rape the competition. But that's bad for business. They know it. And they're milking it.

BlackOctagon
08-23-2012, 04:47 AM
^This is what I've effectively read in bits and pieces over the past 8-12 months, but again, I haven't seen any verifiable evidence for it (if such evidence indeed exists). Anyway, I don't want to get off-topic, but the entire situation REALLY pissed me off. AMD launched the 7970 which - for a few months - was the best single-GPU gaming card out there. Several people like me bought it and remain very happy with it. But I saw sooooo many forum discussions during that time along the lines of "Should I buy the 7970 or wait for Kepler?", to which the overwhelming answer was "Wtf u madz bro? Wait 4 Keplar cos its gonna totally pwn 7970 by like 45%. Nah seriously bro I read it on that other thread every1 knows its fully true!"

Then came the 680. And instead of outcry at NVIDIA for failing to deliver on this mystical 45% improvement over the 7970, there was praise and back-tracking for 'not even needing to bring out the big guns.' All in all, very impressive IF it's true. But where is the evidence?

P.S., I am not an AMD fanboy. If I hadn't been so impulsive in buying the 7970 I would have probably waited it out and bought an aftermarket 670 like EVGA's FTW edition. Best overall performance/dollar choice IMHO


EDIT: I still think it's equally feasible to theorise that NVIDIA never intended to release GK110 for gaming (at least in this generation), or if they were couldn't get it ready in time given 7970s headstart to the market: http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/354254-15-kepler2-gk110-gaming

HyperMatrix
08-23-2012, 04:56 AM
The proof is in the die size, compared to previous generations. Kepler is an amazing architecture regardless. It puts out this much performance, at much lower power use due to the die size and of course the new fabrication process.

If Nvidia went with a full sized die, with a proper bus to handle it, they could make their GTX 780 or whatever they end up calling it as powerful as a GTX 690, at a much lower cost. But doing that = less card sales as fewer people will need to SLI as a result. But again, I'm betting Nvidia won't go All out just yet. They'll milk it.

BlackOctagon
08-23-2012, 05:07 AM
^Ok I understand where you're coming from. Given that this thread is about the pixel clock limitation in NVIDIA drivers I think I'll stop here. But I will say that in an ideal world, no-one should NEED to go SLI ;):p:eek:

whitespider
08-23-2012, 08:28 AM
Not the ideal world. Never was. Never will be. Oh, wait, what was the topic of discussion again?

NateZ28
08-24-2012, 02:05 PM
I started a topic over at Tweakforce: http://tweakforce.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=6239
Hopefully one of the guys over there is knowledgeable enough to help us out. Anyone who feels like registering please do so and comment on the topic.

waperboy
08-25-2012, 01:16 AM
I'm starting to gravitate towards Linus Torvalds' sentiment regarding nVidia...

brokn9
08-25-2012, 05:00 AM
EVGA found a way to set custom res and refresh via the NVAPI, but it hasn't been tested yet.

NateZ28
08-29-2012, 01:30 PM
Tweakforce just released a driver they want us to test out to see if the limit is removed. Here is a link to the test the new driver: http://www.mediafire.com/?6ydniv899aa8pji
I'm at work so I can't test it out right now.

HyperMatrix
08-29-2012, 04:21 PM
That driver didn't work. But they're trying out other stuff. So let's keep hope. :)